Waaaaaaah....never even HEARD of Red Robin. The guy who wrote the letter to Red Robin sounds like a jerk with too much time on his hands. Go back to the Nazi shirts.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for featuring this on your site. Hopefully it will make a difference. I also posted on my blog www.gilberttang.blogspot.com.

Best,

Gilbert

It's true, I am a jerk at times. However, I'm usually pressed for time.

I find the comment "Waaaaaah" to be a little out of place on a site devoted to consumer topics.. such as complaints.

Phelander, Red Robin has 325 locations in the US and Canada. They're a major chain, on the order of Chili's or TGI Friday's. It's totally specious for them to argue that because one can customize menu items it would be impossible for them to provide accurate nutritional information. Good on ya, Gilbert.

@phelander... Uhhh, so being concerned about your health and making an entirely reasonable request of a restaurant makes Gilbert a jerk? Or maybe it's registering disgust with the total non-answer he got as a result?

Jerk, huh? Physician, heal thyself.

All the nutrition facts I need to know are right here:
All burgers come with a bottomless basket of steak fries.

Once I'm sure that a single meal measures in the thousands of calories, I'm no longer really concerned about the exact number.

A more straight-shooting answer would have been nice, though. Nothing gets my hackles up like feeling that my e-mail was simply parsed for keywords. This may save your company time, but it is not saving face, especially when I have anticipated your canned responses and pre-emptively supplied answers which were obviously ignored.

Phelander, let me cite your comment from January 3rd about Wedding Depot:

"Quit blaming the customer. The customer is what keeps business in business. You people are as predictable as the Talkbacker's on AICN. This is a sight to defend the consumer against bad businesses. This was a clear cut case of BAD customer service. The customer is at NO FAULT here and you know it."

I would think the same viewpoint would apply here. P.S. Red Robin is a national chain with 325 locations, not some hole-in-the wall mom and pop greasy spoon parlor.

Wow, I read all your comments re: me and I must let you know I think you all are right and I am sorry for the misinformed post. And Ben, re: my previous post, the way that you dug that up for reference is exactly the reason why I like this site. Sorry all.

You don't have to apologize to me. Like I said, you were 1/2 right. :)

Once I'm sure that a single meal measures in the thousands of calories, I'm no longer really concerned about the exact number.

True, but there are other diet concerns other than calories. For example, "Is 'x' in this dish?" where 'x' is something the patron shouldn't eat for whatever reason. Sometimes it's obvious to know when to ask (some pastas are made with egg) but for some foods it wouldn't occur to you to think that 'x' is in it.

Banquet's Honey BBQ Wings have pork in them. Would most people know to check if the chicken their buying has pig in it?

"It disgusts me that you don't have easily-accessible nutrition information available for the public to view on this site." Seriously? Wow, Gilbert. You must have the most idyllic life possible if lack of nutritional info on a burger joint's website disgusts you. It totally sounds like you were just searching for something to complain about, and decided Red Robin's lack of nutritional info would do.

I second the comments of phelander. I am sure that Red Robin is better off without the type of customer who would freak out so much over something so minor. Overreact much? Gilbert sounds like the type of person who would want a very specific special order and then send his burger back three times because there was one onion slice too many on it.

Actually, I just assumed that all major restaurant chains provided nutritional information. Heck, if McD's can do it, why can't a more upscale burger joint do it?

Maybe disgust is a strong word, but I agree with the original topic, they should provide the information.

I too an really irked by restaurants chains that do not provide nutritional information. While we all know that burgers and fries are high in calories and fat, there are a lot of choices that may be deceptive. Salads would be an example. Many specialty salads (even if you choose lowfat dressing) turn out to have way more calories than you would expect. People think they are making a healthy choice when in fact they may as well have ordered a burger.

California Pizza Kitchen is another chain that doesn't provide nutritional information. They are downstairs from my work, so I occassionally eat their BBQ chk salad for lunch. Their website doesn't have nutritional information, so I recently called them to inquire. They told me that they had no plans to make nutritional information available, but suggested that if I was concerned about nutrion, I could order pizza without the cheese or low fat dressing on my salad. It seems to me that if a restaurant such as Red Robin or CPK does not want to provide this information, they probably have something to hide. I am not interested in patronizing a business that is trying to keep from me what exactly it is that I am putting into my body.

Isn't there some sort of FDA requirement that restaurants of a certain size provide this information on their menu or upon request?

Banquet's Honey BBQ Wings have pork in them. Would most people know to check if the chicken their buying has pig in it?

And wouldn't most servers answer 'no-- it's chicken, there's no pork'. I have a vegetarian friend who frequently has to ask the server to send vegetable soup or the like back because, despite assurances by an ill informed waitstaffer, it's made with beef or chicken broth (apparently veggies can actually taste stuff like that--- who knew?)

On another note: I cannot find any supporting evidence of this, however, I was recently told that Wisconsin resturants have to keep updated nutirition and ingredient information on hand. While I was assured this was a health department regulation, I cannot find any reference to this in online documentation (or a book I have left over from my food service days) and suspect that this may have just been corporate policy for the 3 places he worked for (he was a regional manager for a couple differnt chains).

Phelander -- "never even HEARD of Red Robin."

You've

never

heard

of

Red Robin?

*gasp*

Put down the keyboard and go find one right the hell now. Their burgers are de-freakin'-licious. Personally, I'm glad there's no nutritional information available to me because when I eat there, I know I'm eating crappy food and I certainly don't care to be educated as to precisely how crappy it is. Dude, their burgers could be made of human meat. As long as they don't tell me about it, I'm happy.

But that's just me. That information should, at the very least, be available upon request.

I think perhaps Gilbert would have gotten further with a message that didn't start with "It disgusts me that..." If I were in the position of the person who responds to customer inquiries, I wouldn't be inclined to send a personal response to a message like that. Let's all sing it together: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar!

snakeuvs: I thought so too.

What "disgusts" me even more than the fact that a restaurant chain isn't making nutrition info available is that they deliver such a canned response to Gilbert's inquiry. They didn't even answer his question.

I'm glad he called them on it. Whenever I get a canned response, I point out to the company that canned responses are insulting. I also point out any failure to answer the original question.

@ Adamondi:

Something so minor? Are you kidding me? Not that one should be swayed by anything in the way of propaganda, but have you heard of America's issue with obesity? Idyllic life, indeed!

To further clarify. It's not the lack of information that disgusts me, it's the absence of any sense of social responsibility.

It behooves Red Robin to keep people like me (not that I adhere to your definition) as a customer. I'm loyal, I'm vocal (in positive ways as well), I'm active both physically and throughout the community, etc. I represent a chance for Red Robin to expand its clientèle. And no, I'm not so arrogant as to say I will single-handedly expand their business. I'm saying that I pride myself on being a good customer. Good customers breed good customers and, in turn, make businesses better as a whole while increasing the bottom line.

I'm sorry you think such an issue is minor. Certainly the issue of kids trading Red Hot Cheetos like so many Pogs while not being able to run a lap around the red hot asphalt running tracked is trumped by such significantly more pertinent issues as getting out of my Verizon contract.

Funny, when it's our bottom line, we care. But when it's our neighbor's bottom, "meh."

Sorry, remove "running tracked" from "...run a lap around the red hot asphalt running tracked is trumped by such...".

Regarding FDA requirements...I found this on the FDA website:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/tpmenus.html

On one hand it says:

Unlike processed foods, restaurant menu selections are not
required to supply complete nutrition information.

Furthermore, nutrition information can be provided to the
consumer by any reasonable means. It does not have to be
presented in the "Nutrition Facts" format seen on packaged food
labels, nor does it have to appear on the menu. A restaurant,
for example, may compile, in a notebook, information on the fat
content of all menu items that bear fat claims so long as the
nutrition information is available to consumers upon request.

@ Clare:

I totally agree with you. Only, based on the response, I think it's safe to say a human only briefly read my comment (if at all) and automatically sent a canned response.

If you look at all the corporate email addresses the Red Robin responder CC'd (partial headers can be seen at my blog), however, you can see that this struck a chord. I'm sure that whenever RR gets a comment of this specific nature it's protocol to send some spin and CC the higher-ups.

I made certain I hit "reply all."

Let's not forget that if you don't have a fly problem, you can always use that vinegar to make a good pickle...or perhaps a volcano?

Mmmm. Bleu Ribbon Burger. Oh, the hunger.

Phelander, nice backtracking/mea culpa. For a few minutes while reading this thread (and seeing Ben's response to your post) I was convinced that you'd be the first (I think) commentor casualty of '07.

..."freak out so much over something so minor."

It may be minor to someone who doesn't need to watch what they eat, but if you have a specific dietary need (avoiding sodium, say) then whether or not a meal will make you physically ill is decidedly less than minor.

Not making nutritional information available to customers who request it is bad business. Flatly ignoring such a request with a canned response is worse.

You may disagree with the word "disgust", but the underlying issue is very, very valid, and this is an appropriate forum for it.

Wow, crazy. We don't have any Red Robins around here, sadly, but a company's refusal to provide dietary data is pretty shameful.

I have to say, though, that the tone you use with a company often influences the answer you get from them. I'm not really sure why Gilbert started out so confrontational here.

@Gilbert

Congratulations on once again demonstrating your overreaction to what you perceive other people to be saying, even though they didn't say it. I said that Red Robin not providing nutritional information on their website is a minor issue not worthy of the vitriol spewing from your keyboard. You somehow took that to mean that I find the obesity problem in this country to be minor. Huhwha? How is there any logical connection there? Oh, wait. There isn't.

If you are truly so concerned about the nutritional content of a Red Robin burger, then perhaps you should hit a bookstore and buy one of those handy pocket calorie guides.

At any rate, accusing a restaurant of being socially irresponsible for not providing nutritional information on its website is silly. No matter how many times you claim that this is all for the children who can't run a lap or whatever.

@ Adamondi

Forgive me for drawing the obvious connection between your statement concerning the microcosm of Red Robin's lack of info with the macrocosm of obesity in America.

What was I thinking? Of course you're deeply concerned. That's clear to me now. How could I question anyone who thinks it's silly point a socially conscious finger at RR for it's inability as a multi-million dollar restaurant enterprise to help its customers better understand their offerings.

Is it also safe to say that if RR were shoveling it's garbage into the sewers you could also call it silly when the environmentalists complained? You do realize it's the same logic, right? Or was it a mistake to infer your line of thinking doesn't hold true in all circumstances. Ever read The Republic?

For the record, by the way, calorie counting books aren't as useful (besides portability -- but who needs that with the mobile web?) as resources such as http://www.thecaloriecounter.com/Search.aspx and http://www.healthstatus.com/cbc.html.

And in the future, I promise to keep the spewing vitriol pointed toward myself. Heck, it might even help me to burn off all those excess calories I'm so deeply concerned about...

While I think that it would be nice if Red Robin provided Nutritional statistics of their food I don't think they need to. I support the response based on the fact that a company that says it is trying to help really isn't and canned responses suck, period.

Now, if you have a specific dietary need you shouldn't be visiting a place like Red Robin. You already know what they serve is not healthy no matter how you spin it. From the seasoning they throw on their crispy fried steak fries to the undoubtedly 30% fat content in their burgers you should rest assured that sodium, fat, cholesterol and the other nasties are all there in full force. Why? Because it tastes that good.

If you truly have dietary needs then you already know where to go because the places that care about it are marketing it. We have Pita Pits and they do a great job of showing the nutritional breakdown of their foods. So much so that you can custom create the Pita on their website and the stats update automatically.

As far as the obesity problem in this country? It's people who eat at Red Robin who contribute to that. Well, Red Robin, and pretty much every other restaurant chain. It's funny how the strong majority of consumers would bitch incessantly if a restaurant provided a smaller portion size. We all want value for our money and the easiest way to provide value is to give the customer lots of the cheap food items. Unlimited fries? What a DEAL! A local chain upped their burger size from 8oz (1/2lb) to 10oz as though that was needed. But you feel more full and so it seems like a better value even though the price also went up about 20 cents.

BTW: A restaurant should be able to tell you what ingredients comprise their products because of food allergies.

LTS-- I think part of the point here is this: Red Robin didn't offer up any nutirition information--- not even ingredients. And I suspect many resturants don't have that kind of information readily available.

Effectively forcing anyone with a religious or health objection to specific ingredients to not eat at any reasturant---- except McDonalds, because they provide that information on a neat, easy to readh sheet, which they provide copies of on demand (or even on display).

In my opinion, resturants should provide, on demand, portion size and ingredient information--- even mom and pop places. And I think it should apply to everything. The ingredients of all products should be listed, even things you don't put in your mouth. Clothes, cars, computers.... I see no reason that this kind of thing is not provided, except that companies don't want to have to disclose when they are using stuff that might be contraversial.

Frankly, I wouldn't object to requiring FDA formatted nutrition information in addition. Honestly, if you have an ingredient list you can go online to grab tools to get a solid estimate of the nutirition information. Even mom and pop should be able to afford 5 minutes of research to gather the data and printed sheet with the data.

This post is making my stomach growl...I need a Bleu Ribbon burger too!!!

It's inexcusable to not have nutritional (term used loosely in this case) info on the food served at Red Robin. However, if you are thinking about your health when you walk into a Red Robin, you are in the wrong place.

Some companies treat their recipes like they're state secrets. I can understand why they'd be reluctant to provide a list of each ingredient and the exact quantity for every menu item. Corporations do worry about reverse-engineering. On the other hand, I think I'd have a lot of trouble recreating a product based on nothing but the FDA nutrition information, but that would give my friend who happens to be deathly allergic to nuts the information he needs to avoid the various menu items that would kill him. As it is, we're mostly stuck with qiuzzing the waiter and hoping they have a clue.

I want to know what's in my food, even though I'm not counting calories. It's not an unreasonable expectation, although just an ingredient list in descending order of quantity would be plenty for me.

Is it really that hard for people to take two seconds to look at whats on their burger, make a quick note and estimate measurements? Anyone knows those burgers while tasty are bad for you, the canned response sucks, but common sense, you can look up almost anything online for nutritional content.

I never let companies without nutritional content listings bother me, I just shrug and make over estimations, and always cut my portions in half.

"Is it really that hard for people to take two seconds to look at whats on their burger, make a quick note and estimate measurements?"

Actually, yes it is that hard. Studies show that people drastically underestimate the calorie and fat content of restaurant entrees . . . even people who are more educated on nutrition than the average folk. We should be asking whether it is really that hard for restaurants to make nutritional content available.

Personally, I think the "RDA of forks" line is priceless in and of itself.

I am going to say that all this is a little PC. This is a Burger Joint! If you want to look after your body you should for a start not eat at Burger Joints period.

And if you do, and it does not kill you then you need to do a little movement to your body...you know exercise.

Some things should in my opinion stay the same, as long as they advertise that their products do not contain E-Coli then I'm happy.

Stenk, exercise does nothing for allergies. Nor health related exclusions unrelated to calories (some folsk don't digest some foods very well). Nor does it address people with religious/ethical objections to specific food ingredients.

Also: burgers are NOT inheriently bad for you. However, burgers with piles of additives to bulk up the calorie and fat content as well as condiments also filled with the same are.

Seems like asking for companies to provide an ingredients list isn't unreasonable.

Their unwillingness to provide nutrition info (even when specifically asked to do so) is particularly unreasonable in light of the "Honest to Goodness Ingredients" campaign on their website: http://www.redrobin.com/home/menu/honest-to-goodness.aspx

Seems pretty ridiculous to have an entire webpage devoted to how wonderful and special your ingredients are, and then not even offer your customers the option to review what your food is actually made of.

Who cares? Its a giant greasy burger, of course it's going to be terrible for you. The actual data is irrelevant.

Irrelevant because it's DELICIOUS!

The funny thing is I just had a Bleu Ribbon Burger on Monday and then went home to try and find out how many calories I had just ingested!!!

Anyway, while yeah, I'd like to know the information, I think the whole social responsibility angle is a bunch of crap. Blaming the restaurant for your father ordering a 2000 calorie sandwich seems a little misplaced doesn't it? If you're worried that somehow your niece is now irreparably scarred, it's not Red Robin's fault.

I actually agree that this information should be made available, however, the reasons for which you argue for it's availability scream to me of everything that is wrong with this country. Show some personal responsibility, quit blaming others.

@ Drrew

And so the conundrum. How does one take responsibility for that which he isn't aware?

By understanding that a hamburger that includes cheese, bacon, a fried egg, and probably a mayonaise based sauce is not going to be very good for me whether I know that it's exactly 2250 calories or whether I just estimate that man, this thing must be a couple thousand calories. Either way, I know that I'm not eating a bowl of steamed broccoli. I'm eating a hamburger.

If I was concerned enough that if I ordered this, someone else would be horribly effected, I wouldn't order it. If I wanted to eat so much to make myself sick, and hell, that can be fun sometimes, I would.

I wanted to know the calorie count the other day for my own use, not for the good of the world.

@ Kornkob

I agree with what you said, and it does to me anyway, feel bad that we need nutritional info on fast food.

Where I am, McDonald's now have nutritional info on their BigMacs boxes and after reading this info and taking what is says literary, you should not eat anything for the rest of the day in other works don't touch those fries and stand back from that Coke! and still I have no idea whats in their beef burgers. The salt in one BigMac is 50% of your RDI (recommended daily intake)

Food for thought! as long as the food is safe for their clients then I do not see the need.

Gilbert: Now I have to take exception. Who isn't aware that a restaurant burger is, by its very nature, fattening? I don't need to know the exact calorie count in a RR burger to know that if I eat there on a daily basis that I will get fat. You can still take responsibility by exercising some common sense.

Kornkob: what kind of food allergy could you conceivably have that would prevent one from looking at a burger and determining whether anything on it would cause an allergic reaction? Burger = meat + bun + condiments. If you're allergic to any of those things, don't eat it.

We (not the royal we) stopped eating at Red Robin just because we always felt a bit dead afterward. And sure, you can give away free fries when they're somewhere between tasteless and freezer-burned and so dry that salt won't even stick to them.

We both prefer the burgers at Chili's and Applebees, on the rare occasion that we want burgers, but there was this place in Rochester called Lindy's (hope it's still there next time we visit) that beats 'em all.

And I still miss the days when the Friendly's "Big Beef" was placed between two slices of cheese and two slices of bread.... and then fried a second time. And the fries were crinkle-cut, and fried with either lard or Mel-fry but surely not the soybean/canola oil everyone seems to use now. Yeah, it was unhealthy as anything, but then again, in those days "Big Beef" meant a whole 4 ounces. What's the biggest Red Robin burger, like a pound?

I'm in the middle on this issue, for what it's worth. If I'm going out for comfort food (or in Red Robin's case, it might be called "discomfort food") I know damn well it's going to do me some harm. But so many places make claims on their menus, and they should be required to substantiate those claims.

In their defense, I don't remember whether Red Robin is such a place. Applebee's is, but they put the carbs, fat, etc. right there on the menu when they do. Regardless, no matter how big or small a place is, I think they should have to at least provide ingredient lists. If you're that small, just copy the ingredient lists off of all your ingredients and indicate which of them are in which menu items.

On the other hand, I think I'd have a lot of trouble recreating a product based on nothing but the FDA nutrition information, but that would give my friend who happens to be deathly allergic to nuts the information he needs to avoid the various menu items that would kill him.

Exactly! Frankly, I would think restaurants would be pro no-customers-dying-from-anaphylatic-shock.

what kind of food allergy could you conceivably have that would prevent one from looking at a burger and determining whether anything on it would cause an allergic reaction?

Fish.

Restaurant uses Worcestershire sauce in the burger meat. The Worcestershire sauce contains anchovies. Customer with the fish allergy blows up and has no clue why.

Besides, this isn't just about one specific burger. It's about restaurants and what they serve in general.

I don't see where Gilbert actually asks for nutritional information. The tone of the initial message bashes the wait staff and web development staff for not having information that he considers important.

I don't see a "could you please send me nutritional information for my local Red Robin". Maybe they would write back and say that unlike McDonalds, etc., they don't use centrally prepared and measured food products, so providing exacting nutritional data would not be possible because they don't know exactly how big the cook is making each burger patty, etc.

Or maybe they would respond with exactly what you were looking for...along with a coupon or two for being so interested.

My point is that the tone of the communication seems to violate the manifesto of The Consumerist (mine is always in my coat pocket)