I hate people, so I would never move to that, or any other city for that matter.

But, my question is, do all places in NYC pay well? I realize that good pay is a subjective term, but I make almost 19 bucks an hour and still couldn't afford $1600 plus a month for an apartment. If I gave up my car, smokes, and poker playing, maybe, but it doesn't seem worth it. Anyway, back to the point, in New Hampshire, what I make is decent money. Would that be crap in NYC??? I just don't get it.

What a great post and cute photo!

Our girlfriend must be so proud. :-)

I would love to live in NYC from the sounds of it. It's just a little scary to think about just jumping into a city of New Yorks scale even with all the great information Ben provided. Im sure people do it every day but I dont think I would even consider it unless I had a job offering me lots of scratch and moving expenses. Also its Wisconsin Rapids, WI Ben no biggie.

Cheers

Other things to be aware of: If you get an apt through a brokerage agency, be prepared to pay 10%-20% of ANNUAL rent. Check out notfortourists.com for general area info when you come.

A while back I read a report that in NYC you make 55% more any pay 95% more rent than average. Once you get that massive rent payment out of the way, and the $100 cable bill (cable + 5mbs internet, Time Warner) out of the way, most things aren't too expensive. There are cheap supermarkets scattered and usually within walking distance (for instance, C-Town, over on Ave C). The biggest money saver is not having a car. The average price for a car is $6000+ a year, but a years worth of unlimited metrocards is $912, and that gets you everywhere interesting (even the beach!).

This city will kick your ass if you aren't prepared, but once you're settled in, you are surrounded by the best food and bars, and some of the nicest city parks you'll ever come across.

Never pay a broker fee. Ever! Ever! Ever! There are tons of no-broker apartments and those are the ones you need to rent. Ask everyone you know and look for resources online.

One thing I would add (which was implied, but not overtly stated by Ben) is learn to love roommates. You will almost certainly have share your first place with complete (and probably weird) strangers.

If $1650/mo sounds alarming, don't move to Silicon Valley either...

Really it's just the same way folks everywhere make things work (or try to), by making more money than you spend on rent/mortgage. I don't know how much bigger my salary is compared to someone doing an equivalent job in Wisconsin, but I take home more than I pay out, even though what I pay out scares all my friends who don't live in CA.

I moved to NYC in 2001 after spending most of my life in TN. I was scared shitless, but knew it was something I needed to do in order to begin my career in non-profit management.

I planned for about 6 months before the move, including working a second job to sock away cash, and then I sold my car two weeks before the move, so I had some savings to get started. The scariest part was just making the decision to move. Once I did that, I was too consumed by all the details to get too freaked out. Oh, and I only knew one person in NYC when I arrived

Following on Ben's tidy commentary-

Housing: It's very difficult to find a good living situation remotely. I got a short term sublet so that I could spend time figuring out my best option. I eventually found a great deal with a roommate, and less than a year later got my own apartment. Upper Manhattan is still the undiscovered country. Inwood and Washington Heights have some great deals and certain areas are rapidly gentrifying. If you are willing to walk the streets, talk to people, and make phone calls you an avoid the scam that are NYC brokers and save a ton of cash.

Cost of living- yes it's higher in some respects, but there are trade-offs. I was spending about $300 a month on car insurance, gas and maintenance (and I didn't have a car note). Now my transportation cost $76 a month for an unlimited MetroCard (and my employer pays for $40 of that). Also, incomes generally are higher, but depending on your experience don't expect to make big bucks to start. Like Ben said, get good at what you do. I started out in an entry level position making $32k, and doubled my salary in three years. I used my savings to subsidize my first year in NYC until my salary caught up.

Analyze your expectations- I know many people who spend lots of money to maintain a "lifestyle"- clubs, restaurants, designer clothes, taxis. Many of those people make less than me and are up to their eyeballs in debt. But there are plenty of other paths to take. I've made wonderful friends here, and most of them are native New Yorkers who are just living a life. The city has abundant riches to offer that don't break the bank. Hell, my favorite things are usually free.

My original plan was to stay two or three years for experience then move back south. But six years later, I have wonderful friends, and an amazing boyfriend, I have no intentions of leaving anytime soon.

I spent 5 months in NYC consulting for register.com. Got paid a lot of money, didn't escape NY with any of it. It was a lot more fun wasting it on drinks there than in SF, though. Plus I blew a blood vessel in my eye dry-heaving at work one morning.

What was my point, again?

Something Ben and the other posters have glossed over is that $1650 is the rent he and his girlfriend split. So really, he only kicks a piece of that. Most NYers, especially beginners, will work out a similar arrangement. Also, a smart newcomer will shoot for the smallest, most managable rent he/she can stand, then gradually move up as money allows.

My first apartment in NYC was under $1K for a one bedroom, in the absolute ass-end of Manhattan (which I split with a boyfriend.) I learned a lot about the life cycle of cockroaches in that apartment, but in time, we moved onto a better place and I had some great, disgusting stories to tell at parties. (Then we broke up and I had to scale back to Brooklyn, but that too had its own rewards. I finally got my own place after 3 years of roommies--a studio apt. in Fort Greene.)

It bears repeating, by the way, that NYC is hell for the person who cannot resist putting things on credit. The whole city is one big ad for the awesome life you could be having if you just had $50K more in your bank account. I don't know anyone who came to NYC to start their career who emerged without many, many thousands of credit card debt. In most cases, folks get promoted to cushier gigs and paid it off, but I also know of a few highly painful parental loans and a bankruptcy. Yuck.

I can't fathom paying $1650/month in rent when you can pay a mortgage for that amount. I don't like people so I wouldn't move to NYC but a friend of mine is and she's seems to be very happy about that.

All at once I am jealous of New Yorkers and glad I live in the midwest. For I am nothing if not cheap.

Really interesting and useful advice, though. I wonder if there is a similar simple run down for LA. My brother just moved out there.

Ok seriously, I've been all over NYC and while sure Manhattan is lovely, if you can't afford it, Go To Queens.

I lived in Astoria for the 7 years I was in NYC the second time, 99-2005, and no my math isn't wrong. :-)

And I Loved it. I had the top floor of a 2 story row house on one of the most beautiful blocks in the entire borough, 5 blocks from two subways stops on the N/W, one of them the last stop Ditmars Blvd. ensuring I got a seat every morning on the train which Rocked.

I was also 5 blocks from a boatload of banks, grocery stores, ethnic food, pizza everywhere, bars (including the legendary Beer Garden), shopping, reliable gypsy cabs and yellow cabs (I lived 3 blocks from 21st street, the street that goes directly to the Queensboro bridge).

It was safe, clean, bustling during the day with people from all sorts of countries and ethnicities, professionals and artists and everyone young and old in between. Had a thriving nightlife. I was never harassed by cops, had a beautiful apartment that went from 1000 bucks to 1500 in 7 years, had two large bedrooms and three living rooms, kitchen bathroom hallways, etc. God I miss that place.

Anyway, the commute was less than 25 minutes door to door to midtown, 35 to downtown Manhattan, and there was a massive park 5 blocks away with insane views of the Triboro bridge (i.e. you'd be right underneath it), shit I even had a view of it from my bedroom. Huge trees on every street, nice neighbors who gave more than a crap about their homes and community. And I never Once ran into one of those hideous double-wide strollers. Ever.

The only shitty thing about Astoria are the Vallones.

Astoria was my NY paradise and it will be again the second I move back. I was an Urban Park Ranger with Americorps the first year I was here at the tender age of 18 and I worked in 99% of the city parks in all 5 boros. I've seen most parts of this city and frankly, Brooklyn can bite me. It's not nearly as safe as the majority of Queens (except Jamaica and even that's experiencing a rebirth, though slowly). The Bronx is getting pretty safe and of course Staten Island just plain Sucks, but Queens is safe, most areas are cheap for an apartment and definitely for a roommate situation, and the commute is much better.

I don't get why people push Brooklyn so much, it used to be cool 20 years ago, now it's either safe and utterly vapid (ok there are a few interesting blocks) or it's completely Unsafe, dirty and the commute sucks.

Viva la Queens people!

I have my new neighborhoodies T, I Adore Queens (natch). All kinds of them, boros, men, women, whatever.

That is all.

Rachel

Oh and by the way, I had access to my roof, which was the best place to watch the Fireworks on July 4th. Oh the fantastic memories.

@ Matto: You blew a blood vessel in your eye?!? Was that a painful affliction??

Ben, thank you so much for this; as a Rutgers student who plans to move to NYC after graduation, this is by far the most informative and realistic thing I've read on the subject. Bravo!

kimgdog touches on an excellent point. The ability to live comfortably without a car is huge. People in the burbs don't realize what they spend on a car. Payment, gas, tolls, maintenance, insurance. That can easily had up to several hundred a month. Slice that off your rent and things look a lot more affordable.

Hi Ben,
Can I come crash with you for a while? I'll clean up your apartment really nice.

>> If I gave up my car . . . maybe, but it doesn't seem worth it."

Please don't go to NYC with a self-entitlement need for a car. I'm glad you have no desire to come if your car is so important. Traffic's bad enough in a city with 24-7 public transport that, despite many people's gripes, is really one of the best in the world. (Mexico City's would be better if it were running all night long, but, alas, it doesn't. Paris might actually be better, but it's expensive.)

>> do all places in NYC pay well?

No. In fact, in media it pays lower than the national average (at least for entry and mid-level). Hence, Sinatra croons about how making it in NYC means you can make it anywhere. (That's actually not literally true, since it's easier in NYC than, say, Baghdad or Lagos, but the point is taken.)

>> I dont think I would even consider it unless I had a job offering me lots of scratch and moving expenses

Very thoughtful remark. I wouldn't move back (I work abroad and have lived in NYC before for four years) without at least $10,000 in the bank for scratch (moving in expenses, getting by until the paychecks start to roll). Having job leads is important for anyone seeking a professional track in NYC, rather than, say, living with 50 roommates and working at The Strand bookstore so you can fulfill your NYC artistic dreams. (In which case, Wisconsin is probably better. NYC is a magnet for artst fartsy types that in most cases have already built a bit of a name for themselves, not an incubator. I've always felt more creative juices flowing in places with less white noise than NYC.)

>> Never pay a broker fee. Ever! Ever! Ever! There are tons of no-broker apartments and those are the ones you need to rent.

Well, the debate is still out. I never paid a broker's fee, but I considered it once. The thing is, when you rent direct from the landlord (or, more typically, the landlord salaried liaison), the rent for the same kind of place is often higher because the landlord factors in his efforts (or the efforts of his liaison) into the price and that price is sometimes (not always) higher than it really should be. For example, I reanted a shithole shoebox in Brooklyn for $850 direct form the landlord. I saw a $900 place that was much nicer (like, way more than $50-a-month nicer) with a $1200 broker's fee. Also, broker's apartments tend to be cleaner, in nicer buildings because they are managed professionally rather than renting directly from some slumlord with two shitty buildings in Brooklyn too cheap to use brokers. Apartments that you can wlak into often have high turnover, shitty maintenance, slacker building supers and asshole landlords.

However, again, it's a point of legitimate debate. There are good and bad on both sides (broker vs., non-broker), most notably the fee you have to pay (so you should use a broker only if you plan a relatively long stay). My advice is to be way more picky about no-fee apartments than ones where you pay a broker.

>> One thing I would add (which was implied, but not overtly stated by Ben) is learn to love roommates. You will almost certainly have share your first place with complete (and probably weird) strangers.

True Bal-oo! It's almost unavoidable, though I managed to avoid it. If you have a decent salary, then it's possible to live alone. NEVER pay more than 50% of your monthly salary on rent. And credit card debt (or other debt) is a VERY IMPORTANT consideration when you factor in the percentage of your monthly salary you sent to rent.

>> If $1650/mo sounds alarming,

The most I paid (2000-2004) was $1,450 for shityy, tiny one-bedroom (trendy hood, walking distance to my job in the Empire State Building). The least I paid was $750 (a spacious Brooklyn studio apartment sublet that was nicer then the one-bedroom trendy flat). The best deal was a $1,200 a month one-bedroom sublet in the Upper West Side, wehre I lived for nearly half the time in NYC. I almost moved around the corner into a $1,300 leased apartment (not subletted) with a $1,300 broker's fee. It was a very nice place Amsterdam Ave, but, again, that broker's fee. . .

@kimdog - great comment. I'm glad you're in NGO mangement. Good industry (usually good benefits). Good luck!

>> spent 5 months in NYC consulting for register.com. Got paid a lot of money, didn't escape NY with any of it. It was a lot more fun wasting it on drinks there than in SF, though. Plus I blew a blood vessel in my eye dry-heaving at work one morning.

I had a drinking problem in NYC, too. It's very easy to blow your wad (and your mind 3-4 nights per week) in NYC. It got to a point were $5 pints were to me a bargain. I had a blast, though, especially in my co-enabling relationship with a fellow (and hottie) alcoholic. I wouldn't trade it for anything to have stories like waking up at noon in her bad in a suit with one shoe off and a sock still dangling from my toes while she's passed out naked in the living room on her futon with her pet iguana wandering around the room. Neither of completely sure how we got home.

>> Something Ben and the other posters have glossed over is that $1650 is the rent he and his girlfriend split.

Oh, my gosh. I knew people who were in relationships beyond their prime solely because they split rent in a one-bedroom apartment. Couples definitely have it much easier on the rent thing if they're both employed. We're talking about the difference between $1,200 and $600.

>> and glad I live in the midwest. For I am nothing if not cheap.

Herein lies something that most people are unaware of: NYC is cheap once you resolve the rent thing and keep your alcohol consumption down to simple social drinking. The price of a beer is more than the price of a really delicious lunch special at this Cuban restaurant run by a Russin couple emploiying Mexican cooks a block from the Empire State Building. Summertime is filled with free or cheap public entertainment. I loved simply riding my bike to Coney Island from the Upper West Side and back on a Saturday. NYC is a cheapskate's Disneyland. . . once that rent and drinking thing is resolved.

>> Ok seriously, I've been all over NYC and while sure Manhattan is lovely, if you can't afford it, Go To Queens.

I love Queens, too. My pop's from Astoria. I never lived there myself, but would have had no problem. Long Isalnd City is way closer to midtown (where you're likely to work) than anything in Brooklyn. There's a subway stop in Astoria that's two stops to Bloomingdale's (as the mother of my father's Greek best childhood buddy was always proud of mentioning.) Queens rules! However, parts of the Bronx are up and coming. Upper-upper Manhattan, as the article points out, is a good area to check.

>> kimgdog touches on an excellent point. The ability to live comfortably without a car is huge. People in the burbs don't realize what they spend on a car. P

Totally agree. And people who bring cars to NYC annoy the shit out of me. Probably because I got around a lot on a bicycle. I hate that sense of self-entitlement. People who have that should stay the fuck in the 'burbs where they belong.

I think the thing about car expenses is overrated. I live in flyover country and I basically just buy good cars and drive them into the ground. $12,000 divided by 10 years = $100/month. Since I buy used and pay cash, I don't need to buy comprehensive insurance, so my insurance bills are trivial. My maintenance/repair expenses average about $2000 per 3 years, so $55/month. So I think getting rid of the car wouldn't add much to my ability to live in NYC.

We hear through the grapevine that the bedbug situation there is bubbling up into a bit of a mess -- at this point that would be a major concern about me moving there.

Oh, I knew choosing morality over excretion would come back to haunt me!

Oddly I found this post very interesting, even though I live 10,000 miles or so from NY. Good luck to anyone going for it.

The only shitty thing about Astoria are the Vallones.

Who or what are the Vallones?

@timmus:

I think you are exaggerating a lot. An example: before my time in NYC I lived in Oklahoma and drive a 1990 Isuzu Trooper. Very reliable vehicle. I loved that car.

I lived close to my job at the time, and my driving record is spotless and the value of the vehicle was low. I still paid $600 a year in insurance, and that is one of the lowest premiums you can pay. That was $50 a month by itself.

Troopers have crappy gas mileage, but I only put 7,000 miles per year on it. I still filled the tank twice a month. That was $60.

That's $110 dollar a month.

I hit a curb once, blew out a tire. I use good tires. Two tires: a $300 one-time hit that would have put that month's expense at $410. (OK, maybe you're a prefect driver and NEVER EVER have anything happen while driving that might cost you a couple of hundred bucks. But this isn't about you: it's about the HIGHLY CONVENTIONAL wisdom that cars are bad investments that incur regular considerable costs.)

Anyway, yes, please keep your cars out of NYC. And, yes, not having a car means your transportation expense is $80 a month for the metro pass. And having a car in NYC, by the way, is much more expensive than it is in a big, square state out west. I wish it were more expensive -- tax the fuck out of car owners in the metro are, me sez. I only want to see taxis , limos and commercial vehicles on the streets of NYC.

If only I had read this post when I moved to NYC in November! I'd say everything written has been spot on. I'd add Prospect Heights/park to neighborhoods in Brooklyn to look at. I have a 30-min commute to midtown every morning. Plus, Prospect Heights gives you the amenities of Park Slope without constantly dodging strollers.

We (boyfriend & I) tried to get a non-broker apartment, but weeks of craigs-listing only turned up nasty apartments that I didn't feel safe in. I think it was after we saw the place with no windows that we went straight to a broker. It was definetly worth it so that we could live where we actually wanted to live (well-maintained brownstone, quiet street, good neighborhood). Other people have had more luck with craigs list, though.

I moved to new york because this is where most of my friends came after college and I figured why the hell not. Since arriving, I've found a good job and I'm enjoying life here. That being said, New York is not the end-all be-all of cities. Don't think you "have" to move to New York; only move here if your heart's in it. There is a lot of fun to be had in other places with a hell of a lot less stress!

I moved to Chicago in 5/05 and this holds true for cities other than NY. And I'll second/third/whatever the Craigslist suggestion. I found my past and current apartments on there. And both situations had/have roommates. Once you get basic rules down, it's easier living with a (sane) stranger, than say a friend that borrows clothes, has no money for bills but thinks you won't mind because you went to high school together. I will say try it, because you don't want to be 40, having a mid-life crisis and wondering what-if. If you go and it doesn't work, go somewhere else and try. There is some place for you and it probably isn't your hometown. And the job thing. Take what you can get and keep looking. I just got a new job in 10/06 at a 45% salary increase in my field. The first job I had when I got out here was horrible. But it paid my rent, bills, fed me, and paid for a little bit of grad school. It's only a stepping stone to something better.

timmus: I don't think it's possible to overstate the difference not needing a car makes. It's not just the money.

I live over a French bakery. If I want bagels, it's another half-block. The grocery store is across the street, next to the greengrocer's. The once-a-week farmers market is about 7 blocks away. The dry cleaners is next door. In a mile radius, there are at least 5 movie theatres (and 3 live theatres) and another 5 (at least) independant bookstores, plus a B&N. I have to take the subway to work to be on time, but I can walk home. There are dozens of restaurants in walking distance, and most of them deliver. When I need to take the dog to the vet, it's a 75-foot detour from his usual walk.

I know you probably have all or most of these things where you live--if you're willing to drive to them--a mile, 10 miles, 50 miles. (And chances are, even if it's a short distance, it's still inconvenient to walk; a lot of places just aren't set up to accomodate pedestrians.) So that's 20 minutes or an hour, or a couple of hours a day that you spend doing something that you could easily get killed from if you lose focus, or someone else does. And that's not even counting the worry about the car itself: Where are my keys, do I need gas, when is my insurance due, where's a parking spot, will people think my car is lame, where's a parking spot, what's that funny noise, am I sober enough to drive, where's a parking spot? There's this freaking huge level of stress that you lose when driving ceases to be an necessity in your life.

So what we got here that you probably don't, that actually makes a difference in everyone's day-to-day is: (a) good-enough public tranportation that even people who could drive find it faster/cheaper/more convenient to take the subway; and (b) mixed residential and commercial zoning (in much of Manhattan, the E-W streets are mainly residential, and the N-S avenues have the shops; most of the rest of the city has a similar arrangement).

This is, of course, no reason to move. Clearly, there's nothing magic about this combo, and wherever you live is probably going to at least get decent, functional public transportation eventually, because what's the alternative? The zoning, however, isn't to everyone's taste.

@Olegna: I don't have a self-entitled need for a car. I live in New Hampshire and drive 11 miles to work and aboout 25 to get anywhere else. Therefore I NEED a car. Perhaps if I did live in NYC, I wouldn't NEED a car, but I am sure I would have one because there is no doubt that there would be times when I would not want to be in NYC.

Parking in NYC (CHEAP garage, unfashionable bits of Manhattan) - $300/mo. And you'll be thanking them for it.

Insurance - through the roof.

Street parking - thanks to street cleaning, you'll be up at the crack of dawn twice a week to drive around aimlessly for an hour and a half until you can park on your street again, if there's a space. Or you can pay a $200+ parking ticket. Your choice. Oh, and street-parked cars are frequently vandalized and your bumper is DEFINITELY gonna get banged up, as is the rest of your car.

Skip the car in NYC. I've had 'em on and off and they're not worth it. You'll save yourself a whole lot of money and hassle by just renting one when you want to get out of the city. Treat yourself, rent a nice one - it's still far cheaper than owning!

Do any of you live in Jersey, park there, and commute (subway) into the city?

This how-to is great for people who are fresh out of college, or young single men who own nothing but clothes, a laptop, and a video game console of choice or 22 year-old girls who are OK with transporting all their clothes in a trashbag.

My roommate and I are both recent transplants to NYC (from Austin, where everyone else wants to live). We both began planning over a year in advance: keeping track of available positions and current pay rates in our career fields, watching craiglist for trends in rent and brokers fees, travelling to the city once a month for about six months to feel out neighborhoods and build connections, donating and selling crap neither of us needed, and in my case, finagling a $10K merit raise in my previous position after I gave 9 months notice. "Don't ask; don't get." (This raise was applied wholly to my personal debt because I couldn't carry debt and live in NYC.)

In the span of a month, after actively looking for about 3 months, I was hired remotely for a job with fewer responsibilities and more pay. My roommate put in her notice, lined up three job interviews through connections and applications, and in the space of two weeks, we found an apartment remotely via craigslist, made arrangements to sell our cars, and moved all our respective possessions. She was employed within three weeks of our arrival and landed three additional freelancing gigs. Then again, we are upwardly mobile, degreed professionals with 5+ years of experience in our respective fields and have lived away from home since high school.

Both of us realise that our move may be viewed as "special," "fortunate," or "lucky," but this move was none of these things. This was not undertaken lightly and frankly, didn't require any of the squalor or inconvenience that so many young people believe is they have to settle for when moving here. For the record, we live in Bedford-Stuyvesant by choice, though we both work in Chelsea and are in the LES or East Village almost every night. We have two adjoining apartments in a restored brownstone totalling 1500 square feet and we pay considerably less than we would have for marginally acceptable digs elsewhere below the 30s. Queens, upper Manhattan, and Midtown were not options. Jersey was a dealbreaker, as were several of the items on this "Here's How..." list, i.e. temping.

Roughing it, becoming a hermit, or liquidating your assets isn't necessary. Smart planning is, as is realising what you are worth professionally, socially, and figuring out what living in NYC really means to you. If being here is about anyone but you, rethink your plans.

Why were Queens or Manhattan not an option for you?

And yeah, you prepared and therefore you did not fail, congrats on knowing how to get what you want!

@Katana

I've done Long Island (commuted via LIRR/Subway), Manhattan (Inwood) (commuted via Bus/Subway) and currently I'm in New Jersey.

I commute by ferry from Hoboken to Wall Street. It's more expensive than taking the PATH train, but it's a more convenient and comfortable commute.

Amy:

Peter Vallone was a judge and lawyer and his incredibly dense son Peter Vallone Jr. is a city councilman, but this isn't a political site so I'll bite my tongue.

In any case they don't impact the city of Astoria much no it's not biggie.

@ therichgirlsareweeping

We both began planning over a year in advance: keeping track of available positions and current pay rates in our career fields, watching craiglist for trends in rent and brokers fees, travelling to the city once a month for about six months to feel out neighborhoods and build connections, donating and selling crap neither of us needed, and in my case, finagling a $10K merit raise in my previous position after I gave 9 months notice. "

Seriously, what about buying a used RV and driving up there with all your stuff in it if you had a friend with a place where you could park it ? That would cover your rent problems to start with. Once you were on your feet and could afford a house or whatever then sell the RV. Of course I've never been to NYC, and never will if I can help it, so there are probably 20 different reasons why this wouldn't work.

I just moved to NYC a little over a year ago from Tampa, FL. Everything in this article is sooo true. Especially the part about no one wanting to hang out with you. It does get really lonely sometimes. But it's also the greatest city in the world, so it's definitely worth whatever. As far as money goes, I doubled my salary in NY. My boyfriend makes just slightly more here, however.

We live in Brooklyn (which is supposedly more like what manhattan used to be) in a huge place, so our rent is still pretty high, but we no longer have two car payments and car insurance, which means an extra $700 or so a month to put towards rent. And we now have more disposable income than we've ever had before. In fact, I find the more expensive the city, the more you make and then the more you have to spend.

Moving to NY was the best (and hardest) thing I've ever done or probably ever will ever do.

Excellent, excellent, excellent, article. When I had the NYC bug a few years back this is exactly what I was looking for. It is particularly validating to know that I zeroed in on some of these points intuitively and was planning accordingly. However, most of the points were revealing.

Couple of things of interest. First, it's interesting that pulling this off seems to socially dependent. For instance, contacts to get an apartment, roommates to maintain it; and contacts (or leads) to get a job. Heck, I was going to go in solo even though I have at least a smattering of old acquaintances there. Now I can see what a detriment it would have been to not plan on buttering them up a little more.

I intuitively reasoned that it would be just as effective in terms of enjoying the NYC life by moving into Queens, and that figured into my plan precisely. But really, why even *just* Queens? The transportation there seems so rich and varied, I would imagine you could move to NYC by moving to NJ instead. All tracks lead to NYC after all. :)

Dave

No doubt I could be pilloried for saying this, but I've had a Vespa here for years, and it has not only given me the freedom a car would, it has also allowed me to explore more of the city than public transport. New York is pretty small actually from behind the bars of a scooter, motorbike, or bicycle. Oh, and I actually pay LESS to commute on a scooter than by an unlimited metro card. It's about a dollar a day in gas.

Parking an RV in NYC?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! No, that would definitely NOT work. There's no place to park an RV in NYC, are you kidding?! Even if you found one, you'd have to move it regularly due to alternate side parking rules (which vary by area, I believe).

Philadelphia does have cheap rent! VERY cheap rent. It's not uncommon for fresh-out-of-college kids to band together and rent a rowhome, living comfortably. But Philadelphia is also nothing like New York City. It's awesome here in its own right, but definitely not the same.

Christy: Your brother has probably figured out the basics of LA already, but as if it needed saying, certain NYC rules do NOT apply in LA.

A car is mandatory, not optional. Reasonable rents are a lot easier to find; grocery stores within easy walking distance are not. In my graduate program, more than half of the students moved to LA in the four months between acceptence and start of classes. Most found housing near Third & Fairfax, which has three massive mid-century apartment complexes in, like a two square mile radius. Well-meaning Angelenos warned me to focus north of the 10 and west of the 101, but I dunno if I buy that.

NYC has a great street life that always energized me when I was feeling broke. Los Angeles has no such vibe, but it does have sunlight and (for now) palm trees. So there's that.

"In any case they don't impact the city of Astoria much no it's not biggie."

Astoria is NOT a city. It's merely a neighborhood in Queens where a LOT of neighborhoods used to be separate cities, but have been part of NYC for like a century now.

Is that Maslow hierarchy real? It doesn't look like the one I saw in high school 20 years ago. 'Sex' is at the extreme bottom where 'food, shelter, clothing' used to be, but 'sexual intimacy' is two levels up? Am I old-fashioned, or un-PC, or something, to think that's not quite right?

Musician78:
If you live in New York, you'll probably find your car is pretty much useless. IF you keep it, don't expect to stow it anywhere near your apartment. And only give up poker if you're bad at it, otherwise it could help with expenses ;)

@ therichgirlsareweeping

They should be weeping at your Continental spelling of realize. It's a Z. A Zed, if you prefer, and unless your passport has a red cover on it, then you should be using it.

DC is expensive by middle America standards, but it's still the best bargain in urban living out there. I rented a 4 story townhouse on Capitol Hill (5BR, 2BA, 3LR) for $1250 with two buddies. Rent was dirt cheap, so we drank our faces off 6 nights of the week with no financial consequences.

contrary to all of the above, i moved to manhattan without a job, an apartment or close family/friends in the 90s -- i made it, and i live quite nicely to this day. you come to new york because you have a passion to live, work and thrive here; don't even consider the move if you don't have the passion to do so. and most important, living in nyc is NOT about having/driving a car whatsoever. but until you live/work here, you won't understand/get that. first, it's a walking city. second, if you don't like to/can't walk, nyc's metro system is the best in the u.s. for residents.

ah this brings me back to my youth. I moved to NYC from college in the way scary 80s. I never would have gone there if my family hadn't been there, and even so I crashed on my mom's couch for a year before moving into my beloved roach infested slum tenement 5th floor walk up.

My budget for food was $1 a day and all my clothes came from the salvation army. Eating out was for special occasions and we either went to a 6th St Indian place or ate appetizers only (unless a parent or family friend was paying).

Since most of my friends at the time were artists or musicians, socializing was gallery openings or guest list comps to see friends play at clubs. Night clubs like Danceteria gave out free passes - only old people paid to get into nightclubs. We'd spend the day just walking around or hanging out in the park or at each other's apartment. All my furniture came from the street.

Funny, I felt like a princess.

This post reeks of grit. Love it. Almost makes me wish I had had to go through all of that shit to establish myself in the city, instead of skipping to the last step and getting my family to support me. Almost.

When I did my 3 year stint in Manhattan, I kept my car. Crazy, I know. I did two years of garaging ($150/mo.) and one of street parking. I loved being able to zip to the suburbs for real grocery shopping or to Target.

Say what you want, but in an evacuating-type emergency guess who everybody would look to.

re: 75 Sasha

I remember when looking at places to relocate last year, Chicago was cheaper to live in than Ann Arbor, MI (and most other metro areas) so moving there from anywhere is much easier, at least financially. It's tough to compare cities like New York, San Francisco, and Boston to anywhere it is possible to have rent actually total 25% of earnings.

I relocated to the Bay Area last summer, drove out with belongings in my car, crashed with a friend while interviewing & getting settled, and definitely used Craigslist to its full extent. I love it. My other option was Austin, TX, but I didn't have the network of friends to help me there.

It's true that making the decision to leave is the hardest part. Most of the planning and saving was motivated by that decision & was easy, though time consuming. If you use your non work time to research jobs, housing, etc, you will spend much less money socially, so the saving was a direct result of planning.

Man, this post has made me scared of NYC!

I grew up in the Chicago area and always thought of myself as a city girl (lived in London for a while, even), but now I live in a rural "city" (in quotes because Chicago has suburbs bigger than this) of 120,000ish people and I whine about having to go 15 minutes to get to the mall. It's so FAAAAAAAAR! It takes so LOOOOOONG! There might be five other CAAAAAARS on the road!

My head might implode if I even visited NYC.